Great Seal Article

1. THE GREAT SEAL OF THE UNITED STATES:
O! A"#"$% &', ()*+, %,-. -/#/0,!. re-
ported that the new one–dollar bill would be
distinguished by an unfamiliar but appropri-
ate design. 1e new bill would show, “…the
little known reverse of the Great Seal…”
Where did the Great Seal come from, what
happened to its “little known reverse”, and
how did the complete Great Seal finally ap-
pear on the one dollar bill in ()*+? 1e short,
simple answer is that Franklin Delano
Roosevelt found a way to put it there. But
that would keep us from the larger story of
where the original symbols came from, their
meanings, and a (+2 year old intrigue to keep
the second side—the reverse with its eye and
pyramid—hidden from the public and miss-
ing from our O3cial Seal.
So, what is 1e Great Seal?
1e Great Seal of the United
States is the principal seal of
our nation used for authen-
ticating the President’s sig-
nature on state documents.
It was first used on Septem-
ber (4, (54& on a treaty with
the British to exchange pris-
oners. Other early uses in-
cluded Presidential pardons,
patents for land and inven-
tions, and other applications
that are now authenticated
by an agency seal such as the
U.S. Patent O3ce.
Since its very first use the
Seal, in the form of a die
and press, has been housed
in the Department of State
and under the control of the
Keeper of the Seal. How-
ever, the O3cial Seal as
conceived by the founders
of our nation has never been
used in its complete form.
To this day, only the front
or obverse with its eagle is
impressed onto o3cial state
documents. 1e reverse of
the Great Seal only appears
on our one-dollar bill.
1e most recent attempt to complete the
O3cial Seal came on June (2, ()4& when the
U.S. Senate passed $.!/%. 6.$78"%,7! *)9.
Introduced by Senator John Warner and co-
sponsored by Senators Barry Goldwater,
Sam Nunn and Claiborne Pell, it quickly ac-
quired over *2 other senators as cosponsors.
$.!/%. 6.$78"%,7! *)9 commemorated
the Bicentennial of 1e Great Seal of the
United States. It resolved, “!at the week
beginning June "#, $%&", be proclaimed Great
Seal Bicentennial Week, and that a die be cut
and appliances be made for making an impres-
sion of the reverse of the Great Seal to complete
the O'cial Seal, to be ready for the bicenten-
nial of its first use, September $(, $%&". In order
to promote and enhance e)orts to inform the
American people of the will of the Founding
Fathers and of the meaning and purpose of our
national Seal…”
In his introduction on May (4, ()4&, Sena -
tor Warner noted that the
Founding Fathers, via the
Continental Congress, had
adopted on June &2, (54&
a two-sided design for the
Seal, but that only a die of
the obverse or eagle side was
struck and used. And that in
(449, “Congress ordered that
dies be cast for both sides of the
Seal for o'cial use. Yet, America
remained with only half of her
vision manifest in the O'cial
Seal.” He concluded, “By this
resolution the Senate will pro-
claim its intention to finally have the wishes of the
Founding Fathers fulfilled. I know that 200 years
is a long time to complete the mandate of Con-
gress, but let it be done this year. By this action, let
the world know we still believe and adhere to the
principle embodied in the Declaration of Indepen-
dence, the Constitution, and visually embodied in
the Great Seal.”
In ()4&, this resolution quickly passed the
Senate. As President of 1e Great Seal
Foundation, my colleagues and I had initi-
ated the resolution. One of my colleagues,
Barbara Honneger, a White House sta:er,
then guided the passed resolution through
nearly all of the necessary o3cials on its path
to the desk of President Ronald Reagan.
However, at the last check point, the White
House Counsel would not sign o: claim -
ing that only joint congressional resolutions
should be put before the President. 1us
once again the completion of America’s Of-
ficial Seal was thwarted.
Of the three instances in (54&, (449 and ()4&
that the eye and pyramid side could have
become part of the O3cial Seal, one stands
out: 1e plot of (449 directly subverted an act
of Congress passed on July 5th of that year.
1e successful subterfuge set the stage for its
appearance a half century later on the one-
dollar bill.
Although the images on the back of the
one-dollar bill are now so common to us,
their histories and meanings have remained
completely unknown to most Americans.
1e bald eagle as our national symbol and “E
Pluribus Unum” as our motto come directly
from these early Congressional commit-
tees. And the Seal of the President and that
of Congress are derived from these earliest
heraldic symbols of America. 1e Great Seal
%;. <87% %7 =..< %;. 6.>.6$. ;,??.! "!%,8 ,% /<<./6.? @A B./6$
8/%.6 7! %;. ;/!?$7-.$% -7!.B .>.6.
by Paul Zamarian
!enator "ohn #arner
$e 1782 %reat !eal of the &nited !tates $e masthead from !enate 'esolution 394 of 1982.

2. was a seminal and significant part of the cre-
ation of the United States, evolving along
with the Constitution itself.
Congress Creates the Seal
B.C76. /?D7"6!,!# 7! J"8B 9, (55' , the
Continental Congress appointed three men
to design a seal to commemorate the cre-
ation of the new nation. 1e Declaration of
Independence had just been adopted and
1omas Je:erson, Benjamin Franklin, and
John Adams were nominated to be the first
seal committee. By the time the Revolution
was over, two additional committees would
be formed.
Each committee selected its own artist.
Pierre Eugene du Simitiere, a well-known
portrait artist, drew the original committee’s
designs. 1e front contained a shield, the
eye of providence in a radiant triangle, and
the motto, “E Pluribus Unum”; elements that
remain in the final design. It is said that du
Simitiere may have taken “E Pluribus Unum”
from the well-known Gentleman’s Magazine,
the predecessor of today’s Gentlemen’s Quar-
terly (GQ). 1e first committee eventually
submitted a two-sided design, the reverse
!e descriptions of the complete design and meanings
behind the Great Seal as quoted from the JOURNALS OF
CONGRESS for June "#, $%&".
“T!" S"#$"%&$' () %!" U*+%", S%&%"- +* C(*.$"-- &- -
-"/01", %( 2!(/ 2"$" $")"$$", %!" -"3"$&1 $"4($%- ()
#(//+%%""- (* %!" ,"3+#" )($ & .$"&% -"&1, %( %&5" ($,"$,
$"4($%-:
T!&% %!" D"3+#" )($ A$/($+&1 A#!+"3"/"*% 6 R"3"$-"
() %!" .$"&% -"&1 )($ %!" U*+%", S%&%"- +* C(*.$"-- &- -
-"/01", +- &- )(11(2-—
!RMS—(aleways of thirteen pieces )rgent and %ules: a *hief, )zure.
the +scutcheon on the breast of the )merican bald +agle displayed, proper,
holding in his dexter talon an ,live branch, and in his sinister a bundle of
thirteen arrows, all proper, & in his beak a scroll, inscribed with this -otto.
“" 417$+07- 7*7/” —
"OR THE #REST—,ver the head of the +agle which appears above the
+scutcheon, ) %lory, ,', breaking through a cloud, proper, & surrounding
thirteen stars forming a *onstellation, )rgent, on an )zure field—
$EVERSE—) (yramid unfinished. .n the /enith an +ye in a triangle sur -
rounded with a glory proper. ,ver the +ye these words “A**7+% C("4%+-”.
,n the base of the pyramid the numerical letters /,##1883+ & underneath
the following motto, “*(37- ($,( -"#1($7/”
R"/&$5- &*, E841&*&%+(*-
$e +scutcheon is composed of the chief and pale, the two most honorable
ordinaries. $e (ieces, paly, represent the several states all joined in one solid
compact entire, supporting a *hief, which unites the whole and represents
*ongress. $e -otto alludes to this union. $e pales in the arms are kept
closely united by the chief and the *hief depends on that union & the strength
resulting from it for its support, to denote the *onfederacy of the &nited !tates
of )merica & the preservation of their union through *ongress.
$e colours of the pales are those used in the flag of the &nited !tates of
)merica; #hite signifies purity and innocence, 'ed, hardiness & valor, and
0lue, the colour of the *hief signifies vigilance perseverance & justice. $e
,live branch and arrows denote the power of peace & war which is exclusively
vested in *ongress. $e *onstellation denotes a new !tate taking its place
and rank among other sovereign powers. $e +scutcheon born on the breast of
an )merican +agle without any other supporters to denote that the &nited
!tates of )merica ought to rely on their own 1irtue—
'everse. $e pyramid signifies !trength and 2uration: $e +ye over it & the
-otto allude to the many signal interpositions of providence in favour of the
)merican cause. $e date underneath is that of the 2eclaration of .ndepen -
dence and the words under it signify the beginning of the 3ew )merican
+ra, which commences from that date—
$e motto and the “eye of providence” from
the 4irst !eal *ommitee.
4irst !eal *ommitee of $omas "e5erson,
"ohn )dams & 0enjamin 4ranklin

3. featuring Franklin’s vision of Pharaoh in
pursuit of the Children of Israel and being
engulfed by the Red Sea. 1is graphic scene
complete with the guiding pillar of fire is en-
circled with the motto, “Rebellion to Tyrants
is Obedience to God.” Even with the influence
of these three men, the full Congress did not
adopt their designs.
A second committee was appointed in
March of (542 with three new members:
James Lovell, John Morin Scott, and Wil-
liam Churchill Houston. Francis Hopkin-
son who also designed the American flag
became their artist. Again their two-sided
design was not fully adopted, although their
motifs of (* red and white stripes, and a con-
stellation of (* stars with an olive branch
would survive.
Finally, in May of (54&, the Congress ap -
pointed a third committee. Its members,
John Rutledge, Arthur Middleton and Elias
Boudinot elicited the services of Charles
Barton, the nephew of the famous scientist,
David Rittenhouse. Barton was a find. As a
lawyer with artistic talent and versed in her-
aldry, he made significant contributions. He
drew an unfinished pyramid under the first
committee’s “radiant eye” and introduced an
eagle as part of the front side.
1e committee quickly submitted these
new designs, but Congress, still dissatisfied,
turned the designs of all three committees
over to Charles 1omson, the perennial
Secretary of the Continental Congress and
owner of the second signature after John
Hancock’s to grace the Declaration of Inde-
pendence upon its adoption on July 9, (55'.
In about a week, 1omson, in collaboration
with Barton, synthesized the ideas submit-
ted by the three committees. Together they
created a final design that was approved by
the Continental Congress. On June &2, (54&,
the new nation adopted a two-sided design
for its Great Seal.
In the Journals of Congress for June &2, (54&
the designs and meanings for both the ob-
verse and reverse are fully described in the
antique language of heraldry (see sidebar).
On September (', (54& the new nation’s
Great Seal was used for the first time—on
a treaty to exchange prisoners with the Brit-
ish. However, only the eagle side was used.
It had been fashioned into a die from the
description in the Journals of Congress. Why
the reverse side was not struck is not clear.
1e use of two-sided pendant seals was still
common although on the wane. But the full
seal design could have been made into a sin-
gle die with a double image similar to South
Carolina’s Great Seal. Except for a few ren-
ditions in publications, the eye and pyramid
reverse side was never revealed to the public
as an integral part of the symbol of the new
nation. In contrast, the eagle and the shield
appeared everywhere; on furniture, edifices,
bowsprits and numerous graphic images.
1e eagle and shield quickly became the sole
symbol of the new American nation.
In its o3cial capacity the die of the seal’s ob-
verse was housed in the Department of State
under its first Secretary, 1omas Je:erson. It
was used on state documents that required
the President’s signature. 1at use in its lim -
ited, incomplete form continues to this day.
It was not until the approach of the Cen-
tennial of the Seal’s adoption that an e:ort
took root to complete its o3cial form. John
D. Champlin, Jr., a prominent New York
author and editor was most responsible for
awakening the public to the incompleteness
of the O3cial Seal. His article in the May,
(455 issue of !e Galaxy, charged that the
State Department had neglected the seal’s
reverse by not using it o3cially. 1en in
January of (44(, Assistant Secretary of State,
John Hay, requested an estimate from 1eo -
dore F. Dwight, the department’s librarian,
for cutting a die of the reverse. 1e eagle side
of the seal had gone through a few design re-
visions and the most recent one had drifted
out of compliance with the heraldic descrip-
tion in the Journals of Congress. Infamously
referred by some as the Illegal Seal, it was
worn and needed replacement. 1e Centen -
nial presented an ideal opportunity to rectify
the errors and complete the O3cial Seal.
In (44& an outspoken and mildly eccentric
military expert, First Lieutenant Charles
A.L. Totten, joined the e:ort. Having acci -
dentally discovered that the seal had a reverse
side, he convinced the State Department to
issue a commemorative medal displaying
the front and back side of the seal. For most
Americans, it was their first view of the eye
and pyramid reverse.
On February &5, (44*, Totten wrote the Sec -
retary of State Frederick T. Frelinghuysen
o:ering details on new seal designs and ad-
vising that both sides should be struck as dies
and used. He suggested that the integrated
design could be merged into a figure-4 form
with the obverse at the top and the reverse
on the bottom and impressed on the same
wafer. He said the incomplete seal was tech-
nically illegal and a part could not do for the
whole when the law was clearly set forth in
the Journals of the Continental Congress.
In the fall of (44*, Dwight who was now
Chief of the Bureau of Rolls and Library in
the State Department, began to look into
striking this new seal for o3cial use. He
made contact with James Horton White-
house, Chief Designer of Ti:any & Co. in
New York. In December he wrote to solicit
an estimate and designs for dies and press
1782: $ompson’s suggestion for the ,bverse along with 0arton’s 'everse design.
"ames 6orton #hitehouse and his 7i5any designs of 1884.

4. and the now familiar one-dollar bill.
!e New Dollar Bill
I! ()*9, H.!6B W/88/E. , then Secretary of
Agriculture, sat while waiting to meet with
Secretary of State Cordell Hull, and dis-
covered Gaillard Hunt’s History of the Great
Seal in Hull’s waiting room. As he browsed
through it the color prints of Whitehouse’s
designs caught his attention, especially the
pyramid and eye of the reverse side. He im-
mediately showed the images to the Presi-
dent, Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Both Wal-
lace and FDR were members of the Masonic
Fraternity, Freemasons, and for the first time
were viewing the Seal’s reverse side. Wallace
later described FDR’s reaction in two letters
written in ()+9:
“Roosevelt as he looked at the colored reproduc-
tion of the Seal was first struck with the represen-
tation of the ‘All-Seeing Eye”, a Masonic repre-
sentation of the Great Architect of the Universe.
Next he was impressed with the idea that the
foundation for the new order of the ages had been
laid in 1776 but that it would be completed only
under the eye of the Great Architect.”
Roosevelt decided to put it on the back of
a new dollar bill and referred the matter to
Henry Morgenthau, his Treasury Secretary.
1e dollar bill at that time was like ours with
George Washington on the front but with
variations of the word and numeral “one”
on the back. When the draft of the new dol-
lar bill came to FDR from the Treasury, the
Whitehouse designs were on the back of
the dollar bill. 1e obverse with the eagle
before him, Whitmore on December *2,
(449 to Dwight adds:
“As to the reverse..It is a thankless task to ar-
range it & as Prof. Norton says, use it as little
as possible.”
On January ', (44+, Dwight responds to
Whitmore apologizing for the delay due to
work pressure from his current duties. 1is
letter not only conveys agreement with the
comments of Norton, Winsor and Whit-
more as to the reverse, it also gives some in-
sight into the pressures on Dwight that in-
fluenced his decision not to have the reverse
die cut. Specifically:
“Unfortunately owing to the delay of Congress
in providing the requisite means for the work,
only a few weeks remain in which the new die
or dies can be executed under the present admin-
istration. For the present purposes we shall not
order the reverse, as Mr. Winsor remarks, it has
been so long kept in the dark, a few months more
of shade will do it no harm.”
However, he goes on with some ambivalence
saying that although the law does call for the
reverse to be cut, it would be inconvenient
to use it for sealing documents and he was
under some time duress. Noting that it was
originally left uncut in (54&, presumably
because the Founders also urgently needed
a die and that the country had simply lost
sight of it since, Dwight decided he could
do the same.
Independently of Dwight, on January ),
(44+, Secretary Frelinghuysen wrote Ti:any
and formally ordered dies of the obverse and
reverse to be cut pursuant to the act passed
on July 5, (449. On the following Sunday,
January ((, Dwight was in New York to
likely meet with Whitehouse, but records
of any meetings are not available. All we
do know is that, on March ), (44+, Dwight
wrote Whitehouse, “…in reply to your in-
quiry as to whether you should proceed with
the reverse of the seal, that you need not do
so until you hear further from me.” !e Eagle
and the Shield indicates that no further cor-
respondence was found.
Four men, Dwight, Norton, Winsor, and
Whitmore have judged the Founders con-
ception to be an inferior aberration best kept
in the dark. 1us a die of only the obverse
side was struck in (44+ and put into o3cial
use despite the rule of Congress mandating
the cutting of a complete seal including the
o3cial reverse. In ()29 due to wear, a new
die with the same design was restruck—
would the Founder’s full conception ever
see the light of day? It is this single-sided die
with the Whitehouse design for the eagle
that brings us finally to ()*9, the New Deal,
implements for both sides of the seal. It was
Whitehouse’s designs that formed the ref-
erence point for all further correspondence
from (44*-(44+.
1e enduring legacy of Charles Totten, be-
yond his striking of the Centennial Medal,
was his successful pressing of Secretary Frel-
inghuysen to have Congress draft a law man-
dating that dies of both the front and back
of the seal and implements for their use be
made. 1is new law supporting the original
mandate of (54& was passed on July 5, (449.
And again the will of Congress would never
be carried out.
!e Plot
T;. 8./?-"< %7, and the actual plot to sub-
vert the law of July 5, (449 are described in
detail in the two authorities on 1e Great
Seal: Gaillard Hunt’s, History of the Great
Seal, published in ()29 and !e Eagle and the
Shield by Patterson and Dougall, published
in ()54. Both were State Department publi-
cations.
From (44*-4+, 1eodore Dwight consulted
with several experts concerning the new seal
designs, these included: Asa Gray, the fore-
most botanist of the time, concerning the ol-
ive branch; and William S. Appleton on her-
aldry. However it was not until after the (449
law was passed that he contacted Charles El-
iot Norton of Harvard, a notable editor and
author. Norton was extremely critical of the
entire seal design and even questioned the
judgment of the original Congress. On De-
cember &9, (449 he wrote Dwight in part:
“It is greatly to be regretted that the device ad-
opted in 1782 is of so elaborate and allegorical a
character. !e most skilful treatment of it could
not make it satisfactory as the design for the seal
of a great nation. It is little better than a very
complex totem.”
“As to the reverse, the device adopted by Congress
is practically incapable of e)ective treatment; it
can hardly, however artistically treated by the
designer, look otherwise than a dull emblem of a
masonic fraternity.”
With the table set with his arrogant critical
sarcasm, Norton quickly confers with Justin
Winsor, the Harvard Librarian and Wil-
liam Henry Whitmore, a heraldic scholar,
both who have previously been mentioned
to Dwight. On December &5, (449, Winsor
wrote Dwight that he agreed with Norton
entirely and added:
“!e design (reverse) of the original order is both
unintelligible and commonplace. If it can be kept
in the dark as it seems to have been kept, why not
keep it so.”
And with Norton and Winsor’s comments
4ranklin 2. 'oosevelt

5. image was on the left or first in order—the
proper way for the seal to be displayed. Yet,
Roosevelt reversed the sides putting the
pyramid and eye side first, on the left, add-
ing !e Great Seal under it. 1e obverse eagle
side was now on the right with of !e United
States under it. He signed the proof in this
form and the ()*+ Series E One Dollar Bill
was issued by the Mint.
1e New York Times on October *(, ()*+
quoted Treasury Secretary Henry Morgen-
thau describing the new dollar bill as, “…the
handsomest ever…”
For the first time since its adoption in (54&,
1e Great Seal of the United States is seen
as a whole: 1e obverse with the well-known
eagle and the reverse with the newly revealed
pyramid and eye. However, our O3cial Seal
as displayed and used by the State Depart-
ment remains half finished, even now.
Conclusion
S;7"8? %;. OCC,E,/8 S./8 7C %;. U!,%.?
S%/%.$ be completed? I think so. Although
there are practical aspects of redesigning the
die in the Department of State, the comple-
tion of the Founders’ vision is worthy of our
e:orts as expressed by John Warner in intro-
ducing Senate Resolution *)9. 1e eye and
pyramid was not an after thought merely re-
lated to the use of two-sided pendant seals.
Rather, it was an integral part of the whole
design—an allegorical description of the na-
tion’s founding.
A perspective that has stayed with me over
the three decades I have lived with the Seal’s
story, is that the eagle obverse is our na-
tionalistic image: the defiant bird with the
piercing gaze balancing the powers of war
and peace; (* arrows and the olive branch’s
(* leaves and berries. Above the eagle’s head,
a constellation of (* stars representing the
original colonies coalescing denotes a new
state taking its place among sov-
ereign powers—e pluribus unum
(out of the many came one enti-
ty). As a model for the Presiden-
tial and Congressional Seals, the
unfinished O3cial Seal is the
image of America that is pro-
jected to the world. However, it
presents only half of our found-
ing story.
1e pyramid reverse does not
have that nationalistic feel. It
puts forth a vision for all hu-
manity; the Founders knew
that the nation’s creation was a
transforming occurrence in the
history of mankind. A symbol
of their humble recognition
that under the guidance of di-
vine providence the Republic
was birthed in a world of mon-
archies; that the Declaration of
Independence and our nation
were concrete manifestations of
the Age of Reason, incorporat-
ing the highest of human ideals.
1e ancient, long-lived pyramid
stands for the enduring quality
of the American experiment that began in
(55' (/,##1883+) and heralds a new order
of the ages, Novos Ordo Seclorum. 1e un-
finished apex leaves room for the continu-
ous work and advancement of the American
people under the guiding eye of divine prov-
idence. Such powerfully moving metaphors
should be reintroduced to America and the
world as reminders of our Founder’s inspira-
tional ideals.
How could the Great Seal be completed? I
have known two of the previous Keepers of
1e Great Seal in the State Department,
meeting Bernice Renn in ()5+ and Jane Mos -
solem in ()4&. It was Jane Mossolem who
expressed her concern about Senate Resolu-
tion *)9 and it sums up the current position
against completing the O3cial Seal. She
explained that it would be inconvenient to
make double impressions, one for each side,
on thousands of documents a year. 1is was
echoed by Carol Bisbee, the Keeper in ())(
in a letter to me.
Perhaps there is another less imposing so-
lution. Charles Totten had suggested a fig-
ure-4 form in (44* and there are precedents
for a two-sided seal impressed as a combined
image. 1e oldest in our country is 1e Great
Seal of South Carolina with its obverse and
reverse side-by-side. 1e cost of redesign -
ing the O3cial Seal with the integration of
both sides into a single die is small and its
use would not impose undue burden on the
Keeper’s o3ce. Just as in (449, inertia and
resistance to change are timeless roadblocks.
But is not change and renewal what this
country and its creation are all about?
A historical perspective is needed. 1e plot -
ters against completing the seal are nearly
unknown and relatively insignificant in our
history. We should not allow the shadowy ac-
tions of Dwight and his three collaborators to
keep our O3cial Seal half complete in viola-
tion of the Founders’ vision and the statutory
law passed on July 5, (449. 1e eye in a radiant
triangle came from the original seal commit-
tee of Adams, Franklin, and Je:erson. 1ree
men amongst our nation’s Founders who all
sacrificed so much and risked even more in
(55' to sign themselves in, “…support of this
$e embossing press and the 8eeper of
$e !eal, "ane -ossolem 9e Great Seal of South Carolina displaying its
obverse and reverse side-by-side.
9e back of the dollar prior to :;<= and the early draft of the
Series E dollar with FDR’s notations to invert the obverse
and reverse of the Great Seal on the new dollar’s back.

6. Declaration [of Independence], with a firm
reliance on the Protection of divine Providence,
we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our
Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.” Completing
the O3cial Seal to the original specifica-
tions of the original Congress would be an
appropriate monument to all past and future
great Americans; a metaphorical reminder
to all citizens of good faith that our contin-
ued humble work and sacrifice are the mor-
tar and stone that add stability to humanity’s
forever “unfinished pyramid”.
Now that 1e Great Seal has past its &&+th
birthday, the time has come to make its for-
mal form whole in the State Department
and for it to be fully impressed on all docu-
ments that require our Great Seal. It is time
for a proper and complete recognition of
the Founder’s revolutionary vision and a re-
newal of our country’s “self evident” yet still
uncommon heritage.
A possible solution for a complete side-by-side striking of both the
Obverse & Reverse of !e Great Seal of the United States.
!e author, Paul Zamarian, as President of the Great Seal Foundation
was instrumental in the e)ort to initiate, pass and implement Senate
Resolution *%+ in $%&". He is now an attorney living in Santa Rosa,
California.